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Hey, we're fighting a war buddy. People out there want to blow us up. Fact is Clinton was spending all that "surplus" that was really just on paper...it was all just projections. When the internet stock bubble burst, IRS revenue collections dipped, and then we had 9/11. To fight the war we have to spend some money.

And lets not forget Bush doesn't control the budget, congress does. Yes he proposes a budget but it is congress that actually votes on it. Take this highway bill for example. $281 billion of mostly pork spending. That's your senator's and representatives' faults there, not Bush's.

The national debt may very well be larger now, but in a bit of bad news for Bush haters, thanks to the tax cuts, which spurred the economic recovery, tax collections are up enough that it has cut $80 billion off the budget deficit THIS YEAR.

So despite the bad news picture you're trying to paint, its not all bad. And anytime anybody suggests to me that Democrats are the model of fiscal restraint, I laugh until my sides hurt :D
 

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You know what it comes down to me on? I see a lot of people, including you presumably, that base their politics on what this guy has done or that guy hasn't done, etc. etc.

My politics are bigger than the individual politicians, however. I'm a Conservative. I think Liberalism is an intellectually and morally bankrupt ideology and I take stands against it any time I can. If that means I vote for a mediocre Republican rather than getting even a moderate Liberal, then that's what I'll do.

So we can go back and forth on what Bush has screwed up or what he's done right, but NONE of that changes anything for me, because its not about Bush, its about Conservatism...it is about:

1. Private Property Rights
2. Low taxes and limiting the power of government in our lives
3. Stronger border controls
4. Strong families,because a healthy society depends on it
5. Personal responsibility over group identification
6. Pro-business, because that's why we all have jobs
7. Limiting the power of the courts to legislate from the bench
8. Related to 7, Reversing the tide of expunging God from the public arena, because the phrase "separation of church and state" doesn't exist in the Constitution and is a construct of the courts.
9. A strong defense, because that is the best deterrent
10. Bitchslapping the UN because it is corrupt as hell
11. Reforming social programs like welfare because 40 years and trillions of dollars later poverty is WORSE...so much for the great society
12. Reforming social security so it will be there in 30 years in some form for those of us not yet drawing our checks, and so YOU will own your contributions and can choose what happens to them when you die.

So when you're ready to come back and talk about the big issues, I'm here. As long as the debates are going to be ticky tack pot shots with little graphs and charts then I'm not going to waste my time.

As for moderates? Well, I don't much care for moderates. Take a stand on something! Liberalism is nasty enough IMO that I want to get as far away from it as possible...."Moderate" isn't far enough away.
 

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Man Chris, i'm right there with ya and may I say VERY WELL PUT!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
on two separate occasions I've written huge replies to this topic and each time IE decided to f*ck up and freeze, losing everything. So on the third attempt I've grown tired of writing the huge replies and can simply sum up my response as follows:

Conservativism = intolerance. Think about it.

And Cthomas, +1 post count for your otherwise pointless reply.
 

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hmmm.....sounds like your a VERY tolerant person...as most liberals are :rolleyes: ....tolerant as long as it agrees with your beleif system.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
cthomas said:
hmmm.....sounds like your a VERY tolerant person...as most liberals are :rolleyes: ....tolerant as long as it agrees with your beleif system.
Ummm....so in the two lines I typed you managed to gather that I'm an intolerant person? Where on earth did you come up with that one. I was simply calling out your third "Chris96WS6 cheer section" post that I've noticed. I'm sure even Chris would agree with me on that one.


All I ask on any of these threads is objectivity and open-mindedness, yet consistently the conservative army goes on a major offensive to oust any dissenting opinion. The entire conservative ideology reminds of Britain before the revolutionary war. Oppressive to the upmost degree--"my way or the highway." Is there any room left for a different point of view?

cthomas said:
Conservative: tolerant as long as it agrees with your beleif system.
I edited your post for you, since you went off stereotyping again. Once more, I am not a liberal. But then that would mean I fall outside of the only category Conservatives recognize beside their own. Rather than have any gray areas, you see that I'm in opposition to some of your beliefs, so I get grouped into the oh-so-negative "liberal" group. This is getting to be pretty funny :)
 

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Yea i'll cheer for anyone that is RIGHT. If you say something I agree with then i'll "cheer" for you as well, but so far that has'nt happened. I'll also jump out there and say that I believe that we have been too tolerant in this country. As a Christian Nation, there are too many things we have tolerated and have really changed our country over the past several decades. Not speaking for anyone else, but myself, I am INTOLERANT of many things that are going on right now. As a Christian I believe there are ALOT of problems with being tolerant of certain behaviors and activities that are being not only tolerated, but forced on us and our children. I know that kinda strays from the original topic, but that is my belief on tolerance, since you brought the subject up.
 

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Conservativism = intolerance. Think about it.
Right... and this coming from the party who claims to be all about tollerance... all about helping the cause and defending against racism, poverty and all their other "causes", then goes out and actually does more to encourage it than anything else by keeping a thumb on those who are on welfare to keep them there instead of allowing them to grow out of it b/c if they did and got off welfare... they wouldn't rely on the governement to support them anymore. :rolleyes:

I love how people say the convervatives are intollerant, when if you really look at the FACTS its the Democratic party and Liberals who are the intollerant ones. What have the liberals done to stop racism? What party put Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court? What have they done to help w/ the poverty problems? Besides take the money from those who are trying to make it for themselves, give it to those who don't work for their money, and keep both in poverty!

You talk of this so called intollerance, but look at what the liberals say about blacks who are republican. They put them down in ways that are not "politically correct," for lack of better term. J.C Watts, Colin Powell, Condi Rice... What have they done to get blasted for being "Uncle Tom's" by white liberal Americans? How does them being conservative give the liberals the right to call them names, attack their heritage, attack their families etc.? Answer that question for me, give me real reasons, give me REAL facts as to how conservatives are the intollerant party... and then I will still never agree w/ you...
 

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But Chris all those prominent Black Republicans are all just uncle toms because we all know any "real" black person is a Democrat/liberal.:rolleyes:

Just more intollerance..that you expect a whole race of people to be monolithic in ideology.

Diversity of thought is under attack from the left in this country.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
cthomas, leave religion out of this conversation. Your entire post concerning it is mute.

Here are some good things for you all to listen to. Oh, and I don't give a rat's ass that it's NPR and you think they're liberal blah blah blah, listen to the FACTS.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4050537

Here's some patriot act for you, Chris.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4759727

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4756403

Oh and Private Property rights?! hahahahahahahahhaahahahahhaaha, listen to this, Chris.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4725974

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4725971

*sigh* how futile the truth is.
 

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Just the fact those articles are on NPR tells me all I need to know. And Brandon is right, its the liberals on the court that pushed that one through. Go read some Marx, first order of business for him was to dissolve private property.
 

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contraststriker said:
Hmmm...no rebuttals.


I don?t know if people will call this a rebuttal per se, but I?ll give it a small attempt. :)



contraststriker said:
http://zfacts.com/p/318.html
contraststriker said:
Oh Bush mah buddy, what have you gone and done now?




Oh this is a joke right? So Perot was right and the people of this Nation were just foolhardy in passing over him? Twice. Yep Billy boy was sooo much better for this country.



You need some lessons in economics if you believe any of that drivel on that page. To make an argument based on the running propaganda of a political candidate is asinine. Then to bash Bush?s projections while implying that projections are a foolhardy indicator is contradictory, patently. The only reason that many people don?t just laugh themselves into unconsciousness from reading the first few paragraphs probably is that Reagan has been one of our best presidents of the last 50 to even 100 years and we waited to see what other asinine remarks that ignorant author would make.



This is of course overlooking the fact that our Congress is the part of the government actually in charge of the finances right? I failed to see quantified evidence otherwise on that page.



You want Georgie to do something? He is:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167384,00.html

Hopefully that?ll hit the speculators in the common sense area and at least temporarily curb the oil increase? or did you think that was Bush?s fault as well?



So?. You must have voted for Perot right?



contraststriker said:
...Conservativism = intolerance. Think about it?


I have. It?s an ignorant statement. Was I supposed to get something else from that drivel?



cthomas said:
...As a Christian Nation, ...


And therein lies a a popular misconception. We as a nation can not push any particular religion. We ARE a secular nation. While I agree fully in not losing our heritage and history, I can in no way condone anyone trying to push the notion that we are not secular in any way. Even to reference us as a Christian nation we must encompass all the forms of Christianity. We are the United States of America. We aren?t black, white, purple, Jewish, Christian or Wikken, we just ARE. That?s why we stand alone as the only true superpower, why we have the best and brightest worldwide come here for schooling (and why they CAN as well), and of course why WE are always the ones bailing everyone else out (including that gross POS called the UN) while they collectively sit with their thumbs up their ass when we have a problem (like um? now).



As for the other list of ?articles? I don?t see any ?facts? I see a bunch of BS blurbs that are lead in to something else. I don?t feel like playing the ?follow the link and see my pop-ups? game. ?$600 Billion in tax breaks?? well, I?d like to know for ?what?. Hell if I build a new factory I damn well better get a tax break for creating all those jobs and all that tax revenue etc. Goes back to economics. See my previous comment.



With regard to the Patriot act, like many controversial laws it will take time to sort it out, the Govt. will get sued, we?ll pay a bit and the law will get defined. Is it too much as it stands? Depends if they can keep it terrorist/national security related. I doubt my file at the FBI has grown any because of the Patriot act. Again though, your links are supposed to show what? That the law is in flux? So was prohibition. You don?t like it be active and get it repealed. It worked then and it can work now.



The private property rights. Oh my, I actually agree here that those decisions were abhorrent. Thank goodness I can?t stand those liberal prick justices that handed down those decisions. :roflmao:



And before you go and try to categorize me I am not a conservative republican, I just agree with many things typically associated as their positions.



Would there be anything else you?d like to post for my humor?



Oh? and you did vote for Perot right?
 

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The first thing to do with any article is check the reference for yourself. Please refer to pages 118 and 119 of this document (as listed by the offending source)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/pdf/hist.pdf

I wont make any conclusions except that the information listed in the referenced Excel spreadsheet is wrong. Most of the data is correct until it hits the Clinton and Bush years, maybe he had a bit too many beers by that point in time and the numbers were a little blurry. Its hard to derive a correct conclusion however, if your data is wrong. You may as well start over again.

Now as for my opinion, thats a stupid thing to base an argument on. Take a look at the national debt, and notice that it always goes up. Also please understand that Congress (not the President) spends that money. You also need to look at the politics in play. There is a limit to how much debt we are allowed to carry, imposed by Congress. Clinton hit a ceiling and couldnt spend anymore. Now Bush came in and the Republican controlled congress is agreeing to anything and everything. You have to figure out WHO to direct your efforts and anger at, and I might suggest you forget about the figurehead at the top and instead concentrate on the group of idiots spending all that money. Get mad at them, or become another useless voice in the sea of people.
 
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