Question Really Need Some Help With Rockers - LS1LT1 Forum : LT1, LS1, Camaro, Firebird, Trans Am, Engine Tech Forums
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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Really Need Some Help With Rockers

Guys, i need some help. On my 95 lt1 i just recently rebuilt i have a question i need help on. My lt1 heads currently on the car have what looks to be GM guide plates on them. They are casting 643 and i need to know....Are these guide plates going to cause issues with the steel stamped SA rockers i have? Also, does using these guide plates affect what length push rods i need to use? Can someone please give me some information or suggestions before i mess something up? Many thanks in advance everyone.....

Also, i am running the LT4 Hot Cam with upgraded springs

Thanks!
-----------------------------------
1995 Firebird TA/A4 Stalled
LT1 cammed with boltons

Last edited by Steve's_94_Z28; 08-01-2016 at 04:20 PM.
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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Here is what i have......

Thanks!
-----------------------------------
1995 Firebird TA/A4 Stalled
LT1 cammed with boltons

Last edited by Steve's_94_Z28; 08-12-2016 at 07:06 PM.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 05:49 PM
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SA rocker arms do not use guide plates. But I have no idea if having them will hurt anything.

Only non self adjusting rockers need guide plates.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 06:01 PM
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OP

Can't see in your pics but if the stamped rockers have little "tabs" on the tips that ride on the valve stem tip on both sides than they are SA (self aligning). If those are stock rockers they are SA and you DO NOT want to use guide plates

guide plates have no influence on PR length. You do need "hardened" PR though to use with guide plates
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocobolo95 View Post
SA rocker arms do not use guide plates. But I have no idea if having them will hurt anything.

Only non self adjusting rockers need guide plates.
Thanks guys for the input, i thought the same...BALSS, i was grasping at straws in hopes that something here may have explained why i was getting a little blueish/grayish smoke from my exhaust lol. Dang, i have read everything i could find as well as checked the entire motor completely several times including compression leak down test, checking for vacuum leaks, PCV valve...everything i could think of and still no luck....

Thanks!
-----------------------------------
1995 Firebird TA/A4 Stalled
LT1 cammed with boltons
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 07:09 PM
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Did you check the valve guide seals? They can leak oil into the combustion chamber.
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cocobolo95 View Post
Did you check the valve guide seals? They can leak oil into the combustion chamber.
Well, i paid a garage to install new seals and inspect and clean my heads but now a days that dont mean a whole lot lol. Im not even sure what type or brand of seals he used, says he cant remember since it was this last winter.

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-----------------------------------
1995 Firebird TA/A4 Stalled
LT1 cammed with boltons
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-02-2016, 10:30 AM
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Well, i paid a garage to install new seals and inspect and clean my heads but now a days that dont mean a whole lot lol. Im not even sure what type or brand of seals he used, says he cant remember since it was this last winter.
so you paid someone to do valve stem seals, inspect the heads and clean them up....and they used guide plates with SA stamped rockers....than they FU

What happens when using guide plates and SA rockers is the guide plate geometry to PR fights the SA RR placement on the valve tip. This would "side load" the valve stem and wear out the guide and valve stem seal

You want to use "Viton" type seals. FelPro are good. If you have the white Teflon ones...they wear & leak fast.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-02-2016, 01:59 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BALLSS View Post
so you paid someone to do valve stem seals, inspect the heads and clean them up....and they used guide plates with SA stamped rockers....than they FU

What happens when using guide plates and SA rockers is the guide plate geometry to PR fights the SA RR placement on the valve tip. This would "side load" the valve stem and wear out the guide and valve stem seal

You want to use "Viton" type seals. FelPro are good. If you have the white Teflon ones...they wear & leak fast.
BALLSS, Yes sir, they sure did lol. Anyways, i am removing the plates and replacing the seals with the Viton you recommended....Hopefully this will help my problem. Thanks buddy for the insight, i appreciate it!

Thanks!
-----------------------------------
1995 Firebird TA/A4 Stalled
LT1 cammed with boltons
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-02-2016, 03:33 PM
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I am assuming you have the stamped rockers that are stock which are SA. If you know that for fact than yes remove the guide plates. IDK if the shop that did the work put on NSA stamped rockers.....which would explain the guide plates if that is the case

or install FULL RR that are NSA and keep the guide plates

You can change the valve stem seals without hooking air up to each cyl. This way the valve just drops about 1/4-1/2".

rotate motor to #1 TDC and do cyl 1 & 6
rotate motor 90 degrees and do cyl 5 & 8
rotate motor 90 degrees and do cyl 7 & 4
rotate motor 90 degrees and do cyl 3 & 2

Since you need to take the valve springs off to do this...replace springs if they are still the stock ones
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-02-2016, 03:54 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BALLSS View Post
I am assuming you have the stamped rockers that are stock which are SA. If you know that for fact than yes remove the guide plates. IDK if the shop that did the work put on NSA stamped rockers.....which would explain the guide plates if that is the case

or install FULL RR that are NSA and keep the guide plates

You can change the valve stem seals without hooking air up to each cyl. This way the valve just drops about 1/4-1/2".

rotate motor to #1 TDC and do cyl 1 & 6
rotate motor 90 degrees and do cyl 5 & 8
rotate motor 90 degrees and do cyl 7 & 4
rotate motor 90 degrees and do cyl 3 & 2

Since you need to take the valve springs off to do this...replace springs if they are still the stock ones

BALLSS, thank you sir for the info o replacing the seals, i will do this. The springs are new, or at least i paid them to upgrade them with new ones. Yes, the rockers are the SA stamped factory ones also. Is there any way possible that this setup could cause me to burn some oil sometimes on initial startup and on deceleration?

Thanks!
-----------------------------------
1995 Firebird TA/A4 Stalled
LT1 cammed with boltons
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve's_94_Z28 View Post
Yes, the rockers are the SA stamped factory ones also. Is there any way possible that this setup could cause me to burn some oil sometimes on initial startup and on deceleration?
it is possible with SA & guide plates the valve stem side loading is making the valve stem seals leak

or the rings were never set (if the motor was rebuilt) during engine break in.

I would keep the guide plates and get full NSA roller rockers

if you don't know what kind of springs that were installed....if they are a double spring or have a damper spring in them "maybe" they are coming in contact with the valve stem seals and killing them. You will see if this is the case when you remove them. If so you need to make a different spring selection or have the valve posts machined down for a smaller valve stem seal...
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BALLSS View Post
it is possible with SA & guide plates the valve stem side loading is making the valve stem seals leak

or the rings were never set (if the motor was rebuilt) during engine break in.

I would keep the guide plates and get full NSA roller rockers

if you don't know what kind of springs that were installed....if they are a double spring or have a damper spring in them "maybe" they are coming in contact with the valve stem seals and killing them. You will see if this is the case when you remove them. If so you need to make a different spring selection or have the valve posts machined down for a smaller valve stem seal...

BALLSS, Thanks for the input. Also, not sure if this is relevant or not but the lt1 heads and block came out of a Corvette that burnt to the ground due to an electrical fire. Is there any chance that the heads could have been damaged in the fire? Like i said, the garage i paid just cleaned the heads up and replaced the seals and springs...Could a vehicle fire cause some kind of damage not visible to the eye?

Thanks!
-----------------------------------
1995 Firebird TA/A4 Stalled
LT1 cammed with boltons
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 01:57 PM
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Is there any chance that the heads could have been damaged in the fire?
Any used head should be checked before its installed. Pressure tested, checked against warpage, etc. A fire, depending on how hot it got, could do a lot of damage - especially warping. If they got super hot and then had water sprayed on them while putting the fire out, they could warp or crack.
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
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Any used head should be checked before its installed. Pressure tested, checked against warpage, etc. A fire, depending on how hot it got, could do a lot of damage - especially warping. If they got super hot and then had water sprayed on them while putting the fire out, they could warp or crack.
Thanks AtlantaDan, thats what has been bugging me. The garage that i paid to do them has no way to do a thorough test on a head and the fire was hot enough to melt the metal knock sensor on the side of the block so it must have been pretty hot. I am going to remove the heads and take them to a local machine shop for a good check and all new Vitton seals as well as maybe decked, not sure if i need it or not.

Thanks!
-----------------------------------
1995 Firebird TA/A4 Stalled
LT1 cammed with boltons
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