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Old 01-07-2013, 02:20 PM   #16
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A stock LT1 head is a pretty poor flowing piece, so duration is going to be your friend. It takes a little more time to fill the cylinders through those heads, compared to a better flowing head.

For a stock bottom end, the CC503 is a pretty good choice (although the 226/232 that was spec'd by Lloyd would be a bit better). I've used the 503 several times on near-stock builds. It's a nice running camshaft. I'd have them grind it on a 110 LSA, though, and install it 2 degrees advanced (108 ICL). Running 1.6 rockers will also put your gross valve lift into an acceptable range.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:37 PM   #17
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What would be the advantages of having it ground on a 110LSA?
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
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A stock LT1 head is a pretty poor flowing piece.......
Mmmmmm........I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to call it a "poor flowing" head.

Not when you consider that it's probably the single best flowing OEM head GM put onto a Gen-1/2 small block......save for the LT4 head.

That said......aftermarket and well-ported heads will flow up to 40% better and (in some cases) beyoud.

It's all a matter of what you compare them to .

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Old 01-07-2013, 05:11 PM   #19
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What springs, retainers, locks and all that will I need to go with the cc503? I can't really find any definite parts lists for it
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:19 PM   #20
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OK, maybe "poor flowing" is a bit harsh, but there aren't very many of my personal engine "recipes" that include stock LT1 heads. Ported, yes, they can work pretty well. But, compared to a set of AFR's, Darts, etc., not even close.

I guess I compare pretty much any production head to the Vortec. That's probably because I use a train load of them and know them like the back of my hand. An untouched, stock 170cc Vortec intake port will outflow an LT1 by a pretty good margin. And either of the Bowtie Vortecs? Forget about it...! But the Vortec exhaust ports are certainly nothing to write home about, though, and need quite a bit of massaging, particularly in the valve seat area.

FastLT1, tightening the LSA from the 112 that is standard on the CC503, to a 110 will delay the exhaust valve opening by 2 degrees and close the intake valve 2 degrees sooner, without changing the duration of either lobe. This gives a small amount more time on the power stroke before the exhaust valve opens and blow-down begins, and gives a slight amount more dynamic compression on the compression stroke by closing the intake valve sooner. Like any camshaft with a tighter LSA, this will keep cylinder pressure a bit higher (on both ends) and accentuate peak torque a bit more, but at the expense of narrowing the peak torque rpm range (power band) slightly.

110 degrees is still pretty conservative. Most of the circle track camshafts that we use are on a 106 degree LSA, and one we ran last year in a Super Late Model was on a 104! Now that was a sweet sounding engine - all through the rpm range!
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:07 PM   #21
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Information on camshaft basics

Camshaft Variables Basics - Tech Article - Chevy High Performance Magazine



112LCA is common in for lt1 afterrmarket cams has good idle at moderate duration and works well to tune with computers and injection. The stock lt1 cam has lca117 or lca116 for better idle. Tighter lsa has more low mid torque and less top end rougher idle, wider lsa has more top end with less low mid torque and idles smoother. Going to 110 from 112 will make more low mid power and torque peak sooner with less top end horsepower idle rougher. Going to 114LCA more top end power slightly less low end and wider torque curve smoother idle better mpg.

Selecting The Proper LCA

Overlap is a characteristic of intake exhaust duration and cam lobe seperation angle. This is when both intake and exhaust valves are open. Too little not good for power but nice idle and fuel economy. Too Much bad idle fuel economy and poor low to mid range power.

How wicked is your cam? • Speed Talk


Overlap Intake open plus exhaust close.

CC304 47 deg

Crane 227 48 deg

CC 502 48 deg

Hot cam 59 Deg

CC503 54 deg

CC305 55 deg

CC306 74 deg


Try this enter 280 intake and exhaust duration use 112 LSA then 110LSA, you'll see overlap change from 56 to 60 Degrees.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/overlap-calc.php

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te..._lobe_phasing/
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:21 PM   #22
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Here is an example of lower lift given duration 223-4 230 and higher lift same duration in big block mopar engine. More lift same duration same idle more power higher RPM.


224/230 "Chevy grind," and finished it off with a stock set of Mopar stamped steel rocker
arms and replacement tubular pushrods. The package is pretty basic as far as the cam and
valvetrain, fairly representative of a street performance setup with a "Chevy"-style lobe,
with lift specs of .465 intake/.480 exhaust.

440 cranked. We had 555 lbs.-ft. at 3,500 rpm, the bottom of our test range, and 510.2 hp
at 5,200 rpm.

Though power peaked at a relatively low 5,200 rpm, it kept pulling to our 6,000 rpm upper limit
with nary a drop-off in output. The idle quality with this cam was puppy-dog smooth,
pulling 14.5-inch Hg of vacuum at an 850 rpm idle.



Next, we made a quick swap to the identical Hughes 223/230 cam, which upped the lift at the
valve to .504 inch on the intake and .515-inch exhaust, for a gain of .039/.035-inch,
respectively. All the other cam specs remained the same.


Testing with the Hughes cam upped torque right from the bottom to 558.7 lbs.-ft. at 3,500 rpm
with the torque peak below the bottom rpm of our test. The torque increase was even greater
all the way to the top of the scale at 6,000 rpm. Peak horsepower was now 523.1 at 5,800 rpm, and though peak horsepower rpm was a good 600 rpm higher,


but the cam change definitively proved an advantage. Idle quality and vacuum was unchanged
from our baseline cam, so the bottom line was more output and more rpm with no apparent
downside.


Cam Velocity-Advantage Mopar - Mopar Muscle Magazine


A good example in an LT1 of short duration high lift not much cam advance is the LPE 211/219Cam
Specs
211 intake duration 219 exhaust 500"/.525" lift 1.5 rocker arms with 1.6's Lift I .533 / E.558 112lsa

This is an excellent sleeper cam for stock heads LT1 with 1.6 rocker arms 214/222 .533/.558 112LSA and it will put down
numbers as good or better than the Hotcam though it has less duration it has more lift with 1.6 rocker almost optimum for the stock Lt1 head flow.

http://ltxtech.com/forums/showthread...w-dyno-numbers


My custom cam design should be able to pull 11's with excellent driveability. Try a custom regrind or new cam here are the specifications:

Cam lobe lift stock Lt1 Heads Intake .335 Exhaust .350

Lift at .050" 1.5 Rocker arms .502 Intake .525 Exhaust Duration at .050 Lift 221 Intake 227 Exhaust LSA/LCA 112 +6
Intake centerline 106deg

With 1.6 Rocker arms effective timing and lift 224deg .535" lift Intake and 230Deg .558" Exhaust. Stock LT1 heads.


Cam lobe lift ported Lt1 heads Intake .357 Exhaust .372

For Ported heads use the 1.6 ratio numbers above for the 1.5 ratio lift so the cam timing for ported Lt1 heads with
1.6 ratio rocker arms would be 227deg intake .568" Lift 233 deg exhaust .591" Lift Exhaust LSA/LCA 112+6 ICL 106 ECL 118


Max Power ported heads intake duration 233 deg exhaust duration 240 deg with 1.6 rockers and above lobe lifts
timing would be 236/243 .568/.591 114+2
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
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.......This is an excellent sleeper cam for stock heads LT1 with 1.6 rocker arms 214/222 .533/.558 112LSA and it will put down numbers as good or better than the Hotcam though it has less duration it has more lift with 1.6 rocker almost optimum for the stock Lt1 head flow.....
Not only that, but the lower duration also means higher dynamic compression ratio with that cam vs the Hot Cam.

Those two factors (more optimal lift and higher (closer to stock) dynamic compression ratio) would make this a better cam choice for stock head LT1 than the Hot Cam would be.

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Old 01-08-2013, 02:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
112LCA is common in for lt1 afterrmarket cams has good idle at moderate duration and works well to tune with computers and injection. The stock lt1 cam has lca117 or lca116 for better idle. Tighter lsa has more low mid torque and less top end rougher idle, wider lsa has more top end with less low mid torque and idles smoother. Going to 110 from 112 will make more low mid power and torque peak sooner with less top end horsepower idle rougher. Going to 114LCA more top end power slightly less low end and wider torque curve smoother idle better mpg.
According to this, my 104 LSA solid roller Super Late model cam would be a great bottom end truck camshaft with no top end at all...! Somehow, though, as you hear it pulling hard through the upper 7000's and into the low 8000 rpm range on the straights, I don't think so...
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:49 PM   #25
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Well so far here's a list that me and a friend that's helping me work on the motor came up with.

CC503

Howard's Springs
Howards, Perf. Hyd. Roller/Mech. Flat Tappet Valve Springs-Competition Products

Scorpion 1.6rr's
Scorpion, Race Series Roller Rockers, Chev SB, 7/16" 1.6-Competition Products

7/16 Studs*
ARP, High Perf. Rocker Arm Stud Kit, Chev SB, Ford SB-Competition Products

5/16 Guide plates
Power Products, Guide Plates, Chev SB 5/16", Flat, Set of 8-Competition Products

Now what I'm curious about, do you guys think that set of springs would also work with the LE 226/232 cam? If these supporting mods will work with the LE cam then I'd like to go with it instead since its the same price as the cc503

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Old 01-08-2013, 04:57 PM   #26
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The LE Cam has a bit more lift than the CC-503 cam.....you'll need better springs.

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Old 01-08-2013, 05:04 PM   #27
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It says their max lift is .600. So what kind of springs would I need?
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:50 PM   #28
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Try these
Lunati LT Dual Valve Spring Kit w/ Steel Retainers, .660 [73925K2]

Manley makes good springs but expensive

Manley NexTek Valve Springs, .650 (GM LT1 & LS1) [221438-16]
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:18 PM   #29
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According to this, my 104 LSA solid roller Super Late model cam would be a great bottom end truck camshaft with no top end at all...! Somehow, though, as you hear it pulling hard through the upper 7000's and into the low 8000 rpm range on the straights, I don't think so...
You and circle track racers know that with large duration cams running constant high RPM like NASCAR or Circle track dirt racers a tighter lobe center angle will give you more power out of the turns 102-104 LSA/LCA than a cam with 112 LSA with the same duration. Its a crutch for excess duration.
Widen lobe centers for more top end if duration is less then optimal for a high rpm range and broaden torque curve so it pulls harder longer. Longer oval tracks and wide ratio transmissions.

Shorter lobe centers tame larger than optimal duration and provide better throttle response with big cams. Close ratio transmissions and shorter oval tracks work better with tighter LCA/LSA.

Cam duration determines rpm range and peak horsepower.
Lift determines torque.
LCA/LSA determines idle characteristics peakiness and breadth of torque curve fuel economy cylinder scavenging

Advancing the cam boosts low and mid range power, retarding the cam boosts top end power. Can be used to tune for traction track conditions and different track lengths retard cam longer tracks advance cam shorter tracks.

Here's a good article comparing various aspects of cam timing the last part compares a 106lsa to 110lsa to 114lsa cam of the same specifications otherwise.

As you can see, there are a number of variables present in each and every camshaft that can be used to dial in the ultimate power in a street or race engine. Each engine will respond a little differently to these changes, but this test illustrates how overlap does have a positive affect on power.

CAM SPECS
DURATION DURATION LIFT
GRIND (ADV.) (0.050)
Lunati H230-235
Intake 280 230 0.489 in
Exhaust 285 235 0.507 in
VALVE EVENTS @ 0.050-INCH TAPPET LIFT
EXH. OPEN EXH. CLOSE INT. OPEN INT. CLOSE OVERLAP
106 LSA 47.5 BBDC 7.5 ATDC 13 BTDC 37 ABDC 20.5
110 LSA 51.5 BBDC 3.5 ATDC 9 BTDC 41 ABDC 12.5
114 LSA 55.5 BBDC 5 BTDC 5 BTDC 45 ABDC 10.0
ATDC-After Top Dead Center
BTDC-Before Top Dead Center
ABDC-After Bottom Dead Center
BBDC-Before Bottom Dead Center




TEST 1 TEST 2 TEST 3
106 LSA 110 LSA 114 LSA
Peak HP 434 @ 5,900 434 @ 5,500 428 @ 5,500
Peak TQ 455 @ 4,500 449 @ 4,400 440 @ 4,400
Avg. TQ 416.8 lb-ft 414.4 lb-ft 405.6 lb-ft
Avg. HP 347.0 345.7 339.5
Idle Vac. 8.5 in-Hg 9.6 in-Hg 11.4 in-Hg
Crank Comp. 167 psi 160 psi 156 psi

Overlap
Calculated 70.5 deg 62.5 deg 54.5 deg



Camshaft Comparison - Car Craft Magazine

http://www.circletrack.com/techartic...e/viewall.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...parison-2.html
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:56 AM   #30
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You and circle track racers know that with large duration cams running constant high RPM like NASCAR or Circle track dirt racers a tighter lobe center angle will give you more power out of the turns 102-104 LSA/LCA than a cam with 112 LSA with the same duration. Its a crutch for excess duration.
Widen lobe centers for more top end if duration is less then optimal for a high rpm range and broaden torque curve so it pulls harder longer. Longer oval tracks and wide ratio transmissions.

Shorter lobe centers tame larger than optimal duration and provide better throttle response with big cams. Close ratio transmissions and shorter oval tracks work better with tighter LCA/LSA.

Cam duration determines rpm range and peak horsepower.
Lift determines torque.
LCA/LSA determines idle characteristics peakiness and breadth of torque curve fuel economy cylinder scavenging

Advancing the cam boosts low and mid range power, retarding the cam boosts top end power. Can be used to tune for traction track conditions and different track lengths retard cam longer tracks advance cam shorter tracks.

Here's a good article comparing various aspects of cam timing the last part compares a 106lsa to 110lsa to 114lsa cam of the same specifications otherwise.

As you can see, there are a number of variables present in each and every camshaft that can be used to dial in the ultimate power in a street or race engine. Each engine will respond a little differently to these changes, but this test illustrates how overlap does have a positive affect on power.
I think you may need to read a few more articles, bro... A crutch for excessive duration? Wow... You have officially exceeded your pay grade with that statement! I know you're just restating the hyper-generalized information from some cam company's website, but you gotta think it through, man...

I can assure you that the duration, lift, LSA and installed timing of my race cams are not just close...they are EXACTLY where I want them to be. If they weren't, I'd install them differently or have some different ones ground. I've tried and use many, many different setups. Camshafts are cheap... Dyno time is cheap... It makes no sense to compromise in any way in an $18K race engine(s). We run very tight lobe centers (104) in our Super Late roller cam engine because the tight LSA narrows and accentuates the torque curve. The location of the torque curve (rpm) is determined by several factors, but valve opening/closing events (and subsequently, overall duration) play the largest role.

I'm not sure where you get the whole "lift determines torque" BS, either, but lift equals, well, lift... It's another tool in your camshaft "tool box". Use it to best suit your needs. Optimal lift depends upon a huge number of factors. While the Late Model stock car classes that we run have very few camshaft limitations, there are classes that have lift limits (.500" max lift is a common lift rule), and those guys can make more torque with less than .500" lift than you can imagine. How? Optimized duration and generally a very tight LSA.

While I'm not going to sit here and argue camshaft design with you, if you're just going to get on here and regurgitate article after article that you've read, at least try to get some good information.

BTW, close ratio transmissions don't affect anything because you don't shift a circle track car, and I couldn't give a rat's you-know-what how the thing idles, either. The angrier it sounds at an 1800 rpm "idle", the harder it's going to pull at 8000...
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