Discuss I have $8k to modify LT1. Need suggestions on build. What would you do.

[Jc803]

I'm just going to have to get a custom cam made. And since I'm going this far I have no problem paying a few hundred more or one. That cam was really just to test myself to see if I could tear everything apart and put everything back together along with 1.6rr's and adjust them, without any instructions or help. I'd say I passed the test and now ready for bigger and better things.

This 396 build is starting to sound like the way I want to go compared to swapping to any LS motor.
Only unsure now about doing 396 OR turbo set up.

I guess someone can make my mind up real quick about that. I havent seen any turbo kits for LT1, besides the STS rear mount which I dont want. Is there a place where I can at least buy the manifolds, or are they all fabricated as I've seen? If I have to fabricate the manifolds then its an instant no.

[95 Firehawk]

I would absolutely go stroker, since the stock bottom end won't hold very long with the 550 rwhp + 200 shot like your aiming for. Either way the bottom end needs built, and the forged 396 for $1k is way cheaper than you'll get for a 355 forged rotating assembly, not to mention the whole turbo setup.


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[USMC]

383=AFR 195 street ported or competition ported.
396= AFR 210 street/ or comp ported.
Of course this will depend on your set up and how crazy you get with your build. As for your buddies forged internals: what brand/s are they? If Eagle then you will have to pay to get it all balance and a lot of clearancing of the block.! If say they are Scat then you will likely be okay will balancing and you won't have to clearance the block as much. It's how they design and engineer their parts. If you have the money then buy the LT4 intake...plus you need it with the AFR's. KW has one for sale cheap. Also, if using nitrous ensure your rings especially the top one will handle it. If going all out you may want more than a 58mm TB. Maybe a mono blade but you may have to drill a hole in the mono blade plate due to idle issues. Your cam is best if its a custom grind. AFR's peek at just over .600 lift so you can get aggressive unless you choose their upgrade which you may since this isn't a DD. I think I hit the main points. Keep in mind these are my opinions and some here are partial to certain brands however most would agree about the Eagle brand. A darn good crank could be had at Ohio Crank but you will pay. Good luck!

[PA94Z]

The average NA stroker build is not going to net you 500 - 550 rwhp or even close. 8K is not going to do it either... I have a bit more than that in my top end, and bottom end. That is JUST block with rotating assembly + heads and valve train. You still need valve covers, balancer, flexplate, oil pan/pump, etc etc. I hope to see 450 - 475 rwhp and a bit more when I put a single plane on with 24x or FAST PCM. 420 - 440 rwhp is a more reasonable number with a 8k budget.

If 500+ is what you want both Lloyd Elliott and AI like the Trickflow castings to port. A out of the box AFR head will probably not perform as well.. even the 227's.

A 383 will serve you well with nitrous in mind. The compression height of the piston with a 6" rod will be 1.125 which puts some meat on the top of the piston. Something you want with nitrous. A 396 will net a little more power on motor, but will be less forgiving with nitrous because of the compression height. Another compromise is ring package.. while a low drag thin ring package with vacuum pump would net more power on motor, you do not want low drag rings with nitrous.

A solid roller cam will be a must, and it isn't going to be cheap. Good lifters that will live off the track will be 700$+. Shaft rockers are highly recommended for stability and will be 1000$+. Springs will need checked often and mileage will vary based on lobe intensity - think 400$+ every 5k - 10k miles.

Research, plan, and have fun with your build

[Dynamic396]

I would build a bottom end just like I did for my LT1 project (see signature): 396, 6" H-beam rods and 12:1 compression minimum.

I prefer AFR heads by a factor of 10 over any of the other prominent LT1 head builders/manufacturers. I would definitely go with the 210cc intake ports.

You'll need an LT4 intake for these heads, whether it be a GM or an Edelbrock. If you can fin a GM for a decent price, great...buy it. If not, the Edelbrock is a very nice piece as well. On mine, I just spent about 20 minutes at the porting bench with a couple of sandpaper rolls to smooth the casting roughness from the runners in the intake and bolted it on. Nothing else was really needed.

As far as camshaft goes, you'll probably need a custom grind solid roller to get you where you want to be. Probably something like KW mentioned above. If you do run AFR heads, they like lift...and lots of it. You can (and should) get pretty radical with a solid roller, so a GOOD valve train is an absolute necessity.

EFI Connection 24x is absolutely the way to go...

[PA94Z]

A 210cc AFR head will not make 500 at the tire. Neither will a small solid roller in the 240 duration range. Just trying to understand where those recommendations are coming from.

[KW Baraka]

Originally Posted by PA94Z

A 210cc AFR head will not make 500 at the tire. Neither will a small solid roller in the 240 duration range.

Just trying to understand where those recommendations are coming from.

Personal.......experience......and I'm pretty damn close if not there .

KW

[Workman]

If you dont care too much for luxary, take all the seats out except drivers seat, remove center console but leave the shifter, take out all carpet, all trunk panels, by the way theres a spare tire back there with a jack take that out too, remove the window motors, and close your trunk and remove the hydraulics, sell em for a few bucks. Since you specified its not a DD, remove your cats (if you havent ) and straight pipe it all the way back after installing a set of decent headers. Remove your A/C (i think you've done that already) and power steering pump. Purchase a smaller belt that will fit on the remaining pulleys. Take off your old hood (at the track) or install a light weight hood. If you really want to go crazy, remove your windshield wipers, and their motors, remove your windshield washer fluid container as well. If its going to just be a track car. I belive if you do all this you will probably loose around 200 pounds. And your probably only looking at 300.00 so far ( if you can install the headers yourself and have access to a welder ) If not possibly 500.00 but youll have to find a muffler shop that will straight pipe it for you.
So were at about 550 right now. With an excessive amount of weight reduction. If you want to spend a little more money on weight reduction, buy a light weight battery, as well. Remove your headlight motors (you can push them up orrrrr leave them down, since its just a race car at this point doesnt matter) So at this point if you do all this youll probably cut off about 230 pounds or more. Im not honestly sure how much all that stuff will weigh but i would imagine quite a bit! So still at about 550.00$ Grab a good cam for around 3-500.00, grab some roller rockers for around 1-200$ and have them all installed if you cant. So if you can install them your sittin at about 900.00$ or if you have to have someone install them youll be sittin at around 1800$ for and amazing amount of weight reduction, remove that air filter box and install a cone, or just do the cold air intake (not that you need too) Youve improved your engines ability to breathe just by reading what youve done already, and straight piping it and also youve improved the top end of your motor as well. I would imagine that at this point With the weight reduction, Air intake, straight pipe, cam, all of the above youve listed. Youll have about 360 Horses with the Lt1 and the vehicle power to weight ratio -with you inside if you weigh 180- would be abt 9.3 pounds per 1 HP, Not too bad at all. When you conisder that normally at the vehicle weighs 3440 pounds without you but with you it weighs 3620 and gets 280 stock hp but only 1 hp for every 12.3 pounds. Thats a big difference going down the track.
If you decide to go with an Ls1 your proabably coming stock with about 330 horses, but with the cam, roller rockers, straight pipe, headers, and air induction, and all the air killers youve removed above i dont see any reason why you wouldnt have 400 horses, if not 390 area. Add all that up with the weight reduction, that would mean youd be getting 1 hp per every 8.4 pounds. That is a huge increase. But with the LS1 im sure youd be in at about 2200-2500 dollars in the pot. If you did go with that 500 horsepower engine you spoke of, youd only be getting about 1 hp for every 7.4 pounds. And your out of money. With the way Ive described it you still have about 5500 left. You probably cant throw nitrous at it just yet because Im not honestly sure if the engine can withstand a good nitrous shot, with the upgrades weve done, if youd like to go further with your build, grab a crankshaft from Eagle Esp Forged crankshafts, for 800-1100 dollars. Depends on if you want a 3.622 stroke or a 3.900 stroke. You cant go much biger (if you can) because its not a 383, its a 347. But no joke, if you grabbed that 3.622 crank and a set of Wiseco forged pistons for around 5-600$ (youll prob need em for the power youll be dishing out) I definatly could see you sittin at 450-475 horses and youve only spent at this point with installation, 4550$ And you have one BAD TO THE BONE ENGINE. Your prob sittin at 1 hp for every 7.2 pounds. Thats ALOT better then the LT1 engine for 8k. Bcuz youd be broke afterwards. With alot of elbow grease for the weight reduction, air intake, headers, cam, crank, pistons, youve actually beat that 550 crank Lt1 by just a hair. But atleast now you have 2500$ for a tune, bigger tires, and also a good tune. Dont forget, high performance plugs, wires, etc.....

Just a thought, Just tryin to thro some ideas out there.

[PA94Z]

Originally Posted by KW Baraka

Personal.......experience......and I'm pretty damn close if not there .

KW

Id like to see that dyno graph.. assuming 20% drivetrain loss thats 625 at the flywheel. That would be a first for a 210 AFR head and a small solid cam

[KW Baraka]

Originally Posted by PA94Z

Id like to see that dyno graph.. assuming 20% drivetrain loss thats 625 at the flywheel. That would be a first for a 210 AFR head and a small solid cam

Dyno tune and track times are pending.......

KW

[Dynamic396]

Originally Posted by PA94Z

A 210cc AFR head will not make 500 at the tire. Neither will a small solid roller in the 240 duration range. Just trying to understand where those recommendations are coming from.

Seriously...? A decade or better of building high performance and late-model race engines.

You seriously don't think a set of AFR 210's will make 625 hp? Hmmm...

We make nearly that much power with smaller heads, with smaller valves and flat tappet camshafts in our late model engines...and they're only 358 cubic inches. If only we could use 396 inches, 210cc heads and roller cams...!

[PA94Z]

I should not have said a AFR 210 would not make 500 at the tire. Let me explain what I meant.

What is the max horsepower you can make with a 210 AFR head? The reply comes from Tony Mamo himself citing one good example -

AFR 210 Eliminator heads • Speed Talk

640 HP (which is between 500 - 550 at the tire)
14:1 406 ci
270's @ .050 .700+ lift
Race intake (single plane)

So it is possible. Why isn't there more examples like this... because the above combo would no doubt pick up with a larger set of heads. There is a better head for the same money spent.

AFR makes some very nice heads.. The NPP 245's are one example. A 23* head with the pinch eliminated. They are breaking 700 HP easily out of the box on 400+ ci engines - not max effort deals either. To bad they don't offer that head for the LT1.

quik95LT1 is running 9.8's @ 137 with a set of AI 215cc Trickflow heads, single plane, solid roller, 8500 RPM's etc -max effort LT1. That motor is making close to 700, and those heads are no more expensive than AFR 210's. The AFR's won't touch them though.........

Dynamic I think you may be confusing crank horsepower with power at the wheels. The OP wants 500 AT THE WHEELS.... There is no way a flat tappet 358 is making 500 at the tire

[Dynamic396]

I have no doubt that AI can do some good things with a set of heads, and I know they like to start with Trick Flows. Trick Flows are a great head. I won't argue that. But for an out-of-the-box, blow the cardboard dust off of them and bolt them on set of heads, I still prefer AFR's, hands down... I was just thinking in terms of his $8K budget. A set of Trick Flows and a bill from AI to modify them will kill a pretty big chunk of that.

You keep making some pretty matter-of-fact "there's no way" statements. I won't get into a pissing contest here, but I will say this: it IS possible that there are people out there that know a thing or two about making horsepower... In fact, I know this to be true. Just because you can't conceive of it, or haven't read an article about it doesn't mean that it's not possible. Besides, I never said that our flat tappet 358 made 500 at the tire. Chassis dynoing a late model stock car is of very little value (although straight cut gears and quick change full floating rear ends result in far less than 20% loss through the power train). But it did make 586 hp/509 lb.ft. at the crank through considerably smaller heads than AFR 210's.

[Jc803]

Sorry guys havent checked this thread in a few. I hate to say it but I finally decided to build a turbo LQ4. Reason being I can get the motors, harness, and ECM for super cheap, the tuning options are way better compared to my Jet DST, and because its a LT1 car it already has the fuel return line so that saves more time and money.

But I dont want to stop you guys, reading the debates is giving me really great info and ideas!

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[USMC]

Thats cool and I believe you will be happier with that anyhow. Power is easier to achieve and parts are eerywhere. Good luck!