Question cc503 cam with stock rockers - LS1LT1 Forum : LT1, LS1, Camaro, Firebird, Trans Am, Engine Tech Forums

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post #1 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-04-2011, 05:36 PM Thread Starter
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cc503 cam with stock rockers

I have been looking at cc503 cam 224/230 .502/.510 112. I want to be able to keep the stock heads and possibly in the future upgrade but not anytime soon.

Goal is between 350-400 rwhp but just likeeveryone else, i'm on a budget. I do all the labor myself and the car is put away for the winter.

So the questions are, will thiscam beenough for my goal and what would you recommend for parts on a budget.

I am not made of money but I want reliable parts. Whats the plus side of 1.6 rr vs 1.5rr and would 1.5rr even be applicable to this application? Rough price estimates? I was hoping to pay 600 in parts at most but let me know. 130k miles on the lt1.

Also what is the highest lift on stock heads? (Safely)

97 LT1 M6 cc503 .563/.544, 1.6rr, Air-foil, CAI, pacesetter LT, 160*, Air Ride, Moog rear springs. Founders Performance LCA & PHB, 17x8 Front 17x9 Rear
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post #2 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-04-2011, 06:57 PM
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Your cam choice will be a bit much for the stock heads. Although I've never checked it seems that most folk believe that around .480-.490 is max lift on the stock springs and the pressures will be to light for the 503. I have had real good luck with the Lunati 54743 camshaft. It's designed to work with the 1.5's and it 219/227 with 471/480 lift on a 112. It's a good all around cam and is really impressive under the curve.

You're looking to spend $600 or so and I don't think you'll make it unless you go with the Lunati. The Comp will require springs and a cam with possibly new pushrods. When you're ready for springs you might want to consider the Patriot Gold 1501 B. They are less than 300 including Titanium retainers. I use them a lot and have never seen a failure.
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post #3 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-04-2011, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruin_Deckard View Post
I have been looking at cc503 cam 224/230 .502/.510 112. I want to be able to keep the stock heads and possibly in the future upgrade but not anytime soon.

Goal is between 350-400 rwhp but just likeeveryone else, i'm on a budget. I do all the labor myself and the car is put away for the winter.

So the questions are, will thiscam beenough for my goal and what would you recommend for parts on a budget..........Whats the plus side of 1.6 rr vs 1.5rr and would 1.5rr even be applicable to this application........Also what is the highest lift on stock heads? (Safely)
1. The CC503 cam will get you to about 350HP @ the wheels on a very good day.....but you'll need a set of well ported heads to get there......the stock heads won't do it. Without upgraded heads and long-tube headers but WITH 1.6 rockers and new valve-springs, I'd expect about 290HP @ the wheels.....on a good day.

2. 1.6 rockers equal more effective duration and more lift. The extra lift that cam is right at the limit of the stock heads flow capability. 1.6 rockers (particularly, roller rockers) would be good for an additional 15 - 20HP with the CC503 (my SWAG).

3. Stock heads (I'm assuming F-body aluminums) can take real close to .600" lift, but that's more lift than the stock heads will digest. Expertly ported heads will easily .650" lift and aftermarket heads will take even more.....up to .700" lift. The main limiting factor with aftermarket heads (like AFR, for instance) are the valve springs and the rockers that you use.

4. For lift approaching .650", non-self aligned rockers w/guideplates are advisable.....up towards .700" you'll want shaft-mounted rockers.

5. Parts for now......CC503 cam is around $250; 1.6 Comp Cams MAGNUM rockers around $200; Comp Cams 26918 Valve Springs around $200.

6. I wouldn't bother with a cam without doing rockers and (especially) valve springs.

Best of luck!

KW

1995 Impala SS, Heads/Cam LS3 Conversion
1996 Impala SS, 398ci Solid Roller LT4
2014 SS Sport Sedan, 429ci LS3

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post #4 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-05-2011, 12:21 AM
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I agree, if you can't swing for at least the valve springs and a tune save up or put the money elsewhere. If you go with the 918 springs you'll also need the 787 retainers for it to work.

If you are running stock exhaust manifolds start with headers. The extra high rpm power of the cam will be limited or negated by the stock manifolds, trust me I've been there done that.



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post #5 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-05-2011, 07:31 AM
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Since when does it take ported heads to see 350 rwhp in a LT1? 290 - 300 has been reached with bolt ons... There have been dynos of upwards of 370 rwhp in M6 cars with a large cam/stock heads.

Most people will tell you the CC503 is the perfect cam for stock heads, and will produce 340 - 350 at the wheels. It's a common cam, and there are many dyno's that show those numbers if you do a search.

A $1500 dollar budget would be what it takes for a cam swap done right. Spring for a custom grind it's an extra $50..

Lloyd Elliott cam - $340
LS7 lifters - $120
Timing cover set, intake manifold gasket, oil pan gasket, valve cover gaskets, valve stem seals - about $120
1.6 NSA Scorpion rockers - $220
Guide plates - $50
7/16 ARP rocker studs - $40
Trickflow push rods - $80
MSD cap/rotor - $130
Crane double valve springs/retainers/locks/shims - $130
Melling 10553 oil pump - $80
or GM white high pressure spring - $5
$1310 total

Mail order tune from MadZ28.com - $75
The rest is for coolant, oil and other miscellaneous stuff..

1994 Z28 A4
383 LT1 - LE Trickflows - LE Ported Intake - Jones Cam Designs Solid Roller
Strange s60 4.30 - 4L60e - SS4000 - 3400 lb - 28" MT Radial
Best ET 10.87 @ 123.66 - 1.49 60 ft - +1600 DA
Under the knife again... LE Victor EFI, Holley Dominator ECU, 13.5:1, E85, Custom SR

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post #6 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-05-2011, 09:36 AM
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Sometimes the original post has some good info. For example......
Quote:
I was hoping to pay 600 in parts at most
They guy is trying to do this on a budget and that's great.

Quote:
Since when does it take ported heads to see 350 rwhp in a LT1?
It doesn't

Quote:
A $1500 dollar budget would be what it takes for a cam swap done right.
Agreed, but it's a bit (more than double) the money he wanted to spend. In his post he mentions $600.00 at most. I try to answer questions that were asked and keep withing the parameters set by the original poster. That's why I suggested the Lunati cam. It's been used with stock springs without going into spring bind. I believe he want to use his 1.5 rockers and if so the Lunati cam specs are given for a 1.5 ratio. That's all I was saying. The 503 is a good cam but it's kinda hard to make it work to it's potential for $600.00.

Last edited by 1963SS; 11-05-2011 at 09:41 AM.
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post #7 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-05-2011, 04:33 PM
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600 on my 503 cam swap were the rr n the cam it self. Lol

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post #8 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-05-2011, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1963SS View Post
Sometimes the original post has some good info. For example......
I agree, like this...
Quote:
Goal is between 350-400 rwhp but just likeeveryone else, i'm on a budget. I do all the labor myself and the car is put away for the winter.
That goal is not attainable with $600, but it won't take ported heads either. I was just giving the OP a run down of what he'd be looking at to reach his goals.

1994 Z28 A4
383 LT1 - LE Trickflows - LE Ported Intake - Jones Cam Designs Solid Roller
Strange s60 4.30 - 4L60e - SS4000 - 3400 lb - 28" MT Radial
Best ET 10.87 @ 123.66 - 1.49 60 ft - +1600 DA
Under the knife again... LE Victor EFI, Holley Dominator ECU, 13.5:1, E85, Custom SR

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post #9 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-05-2011, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA94Z View Post
Since when does it take ported heads to see 350 rwhp in a LT1?.......
Since the OP was talking about using the CC503 cam.

It's a good, street cam.....but you won't 350HP at the wheels with that cam.....and stock heads AND stock exhuast manifolds.

Ain't.....gonna.....happen!

KW

1995 Impala SS, Heads/Cam LS3 Conversion
1996 Impala SS, 398ci Solid Roller LT4
2014 SS Sport Sedan, 429ci LS3


Last edited by KW Baraka; 11-05-2011 at 08:26 PM.
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post #10 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-05-2011, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KW Baraka View Post
Since the OP was talking about using the CC503 cam.

It's a good, street cam.....but you won't 350HP at the wheels with that cam.....and stock heads AND stock exhuast manifolds.

Ain't.....gonna.....happen!

KW
Wrong.

370 in a fresh 355 M6 car, stock heads
new dyno and track times (cc503) - LS1TECH

325 in a car with shorty headers
CC503 LT1 Dyno graphs - LS1TECH

I found those in 2 minutes on Google. Plenty more examples out there. The CC503 makes good power with stock heads.

1994 Z28 A4
383 LT1 - LE Trickflows - LE Ported Intake - Jones Cam Designs Solid Roller
Strange s60 4.30 - 4L60e - SS4000 - 3400 lb - 28" MT Radial
Best ET 10.87 @ 123.66 - 1.49 60 ft - +1600 DA
Under the knife again... LE Victor EFI, Holley Dominator ECU, 13.5:1, E85, Custom SR

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post #11 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 02:29 AM
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That 370 HP is surprisingly high.....even with the "full bolt-ons" that the owner stated he had. But those bolt-on does include long-tube headers.....does it not?

The 323 HP with shorty headers is about what I'd expect to see.

You'll convince me that 350HP @ the wheels is possible with a cam swap and no head work and no long-tube headers......when you actually produce produce said set-up.

Until then, I'll stand by my original statement that this cam won't produce 350HP if you don't have head work and you're exhuasting through stock manifolds..........

KW

1995 Impala SS, Heads/Cam LS3 Conversion
1996 Impala SS, 398ci Solid Roller LT4
2014 SS Sport Sedan, 429ci LS3

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post #12 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KW Baraka View Post
That 370 HP is surprisingly high.....even with the "full bolt-ons" that the owner stated he had. But those bolt-on does include long-tube headers.....does it not?

The 323 HP with shorty headers is about what I'd expect to see.

You'll convince me that 350HP @ the wheels is possible with a cam swap and no head work and no long-tube headers......when you actually produce produce said set-up.

Until then, I'll stand by my original statement that this cam won't produce 350HP if you don't have head work and you're exhuasting through stock manifolds..........

KW
Of course you need LT's and supporting bolt ons to see 350 rwhp, that's a given.

So you stated in your original post 290 rwhp with stock exhaust manifolds. With shortys he will pick up 35 HP, and LT's 60 horsepower in ideal conditions?

1994 Z28 A4
383 LT1 - LE Trickflows - LE Ported Intake - Jones Cam Designs Solid Roller
Strange s60 4.30 - 4L60e - SS4000 - 3400 lb - 28" MT Radial
Best ET 10.87 @ 123.66 - 1.49 60 ft - +1600 DA
Under the knife again... LE Victor EFI, Holley Dominator ECU, 13.5:1, E85, Custom SR

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post #13 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 08:54 AM
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I'm a math kinda guy and most flow/horsepower calculators ay that with the stock head flow rates that the max possible is 415 or so at the flywheel. That is at 6700 RPM. Ain't gonna happen with a stock bottom end.....well, not for long anyways. That's for a hot street/strip car with all supporting mods including compression, headers, roller rockers, etc.

The original post....again, states that he wants to spend $600.00. That will buy a cam and some springs on a good sale day. That is not going to meet his goals of 350-400 RWHP. 350 RWHP is going to take around 400-410 at the flywheel. What's stock....like 285. We're looking to need 125 FWHP or so from just a cam change.

I just don't ever see that happening. I know some have done it with supporting mods and some say they've done it bone stock. That doesn't always make it so. That would depend on the day, the Dyno, the Dyno operator and I imagine the alignment of the moon and stars.

The most I would expect from a cam change only would be about 30-40 Horsepower......MAX!
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post #14 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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I appreciate all the feedback. I am actually thinking of trying lunati 268 cam. Part# #60103SK . Unsure of the Lifters quality and timing chain kit that comes with it. I am planning on getting lt when I have the motor out since I'm selling my third vehicle. But I am unsure what brand to go with.
Should I just buy the lunati voodoo cam and get all the parts mentioned above? (Ls7 Lifters, etc.). Just didn't know if the springs are interchangable and I will be going with 1.6 while I'm operating.

Again, thanks for dealing with me being a bit dense on this subject. I'm personally hoping to hit low 12 in the long run. I prefer power under the curve. 5* of overlap should sound great too but unsure if that will hinder vacuum dramatically.

97 LT1 M6 cc503 .563/.544, 1.6rr, Air-foil, CAI, pacesetter LT, 160*, Air Ride, Moog rear springs. Founders Performance LCA & PHB, 17x8 Front 17x9 Rear
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post #15 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
I am actually thinking of trying lunati 268 cam. Part# #60103SK
That cam is not for our LT1 engines. It is a flat tappet. We have rollers. The roller cam will be a bit more money but there are vendors that sell below list. I use quite a few Lunati cams on our engines. The closest to the one you think you want is the 60121. It will make the power you want to reach your goals and be a great daily driver. If you're going with 1.6 rockers don't forget that the Lunati specs are listed for a 1.5 roller rocker. If you want to get the lift with the 1.6's you've got to do a little math.

Take the lift shown at 1.5 and divide it by 1.5. That will give you the lobe lift. Multiply the lobe lift by 1.6 (new rocker ratio) and that will be your new valve lift.
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