No Spark After Smoke From Solenoid (Pic Inside) - LS1LT1 Forum : LT1, LS1, Camaro, Firebird, Trans Am, Engine Tech Forums

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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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No Spark After Smoke From Solenoid (Pic Inside)

So the car has been sitting over a year due to a faulty fuel pump & injectors, so I just got done with everything and right when I turn the key it cranks but this solenoid right next to the power steering just starts smoking and has a a weird electric smell. Now it has No crank at all. Can't even hear the starter click. I'm thinking maybe its grounded to the starter and it just fried? If anyone knows what it might be please help.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 08:19 PM
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Not sure what that solenoid is being used for, but it is something that was added to the car. Not stock.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 02:36 AM
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It looks like it's been added as a remote starter solenoid like 70's fords had.

Presumably the other side goes to the starter ?, if so where does the other Positive battery cable go to ?

I can't see any headers in the pictures. They could heat soak the starter windings so it struggles to start when hot or you have an issue with the stock starter and solenoid (or wiring) and someone has "fixed the issue".

Does this feed the rest of the cars electrical system as a battery shut off ?

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 11:05 AM
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That thing is definitely a Ford type starter switch. My riding mower has one. Companies that don't want a starter with the power switch in the starter solenoid, use this type of system.

GM uses a starter with the power switch inside the starter solenoid. Battery + cable goes directly to starter. So power switch in starter closes when key turned to start. This allows solenoid to pop starter drive out, and when drive is fully engaged with teeth on flexplate or flywheel, power flows from battery on large lead to starter.

Because switch is closed, power from batt is transferred to starter. Starter turns engine over.

Whoever installed that starter switch on your ca probably had a vats security problem. When vats is not right starter is disabled.

You can go to the following link where we have 93, 94, 95 & 96 service manuals. Pick your year and study the factory wire diagrams to see how starter works with vats security on car. www.mediafire.com/?40mfgeoe4ctti

For the lowdown on vats security system go to www.shbox.com
Your looking for # 26-28 in the how to section.

Last edited by cocobolo95; 03-20-2017 at 11:08 AM.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 03:15 PM Thread Starter
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So it goes to the starter and the alternator as well.the relay looks shot but I cant find one like it anywhere. It is a 5 connector 1211 SH049 relay is there an OEM replacement for that? If that doesnt fix the problem can it be that the starter & alternator took a shit?
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 09:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocobolo95 View Post
That thing is definitely a Ford type starter switch. My riding mower has one. Companies that don't want a starter with the power switch in the starter solenoid, use this type of system.

GM uses a starter with the power switch inside the starter solenoid. Battery + cable goes directly to starter. So power switch in starter closes when key turned to start. This allows solenoid to pop starter drive out, and when drive is fully engaged with teeth on flexplate or flywheel, power flows from battery on large lead to starter.

Because switch is closed, power from batt is transferred to starter. Starter turns engine over.

Whoever installed that starter switch on your ca probably had a vats security problem. When vats is not right starter is disabled.

You can go to the following link where we have 93, 94, 95 & 96 service manuals. Pick your year and study the factory wire diagrams to see how starter works with vats security on car. www.mediafire.com/?40mfgeoe4ctti

For the lowdown on vats security system go to www.shbox.com
Your looking for # 26-28 in the how to section.
So I found this deep under the dash
Express Module | Genuine GM | 12182126 : GM Parts Direct: Your direct source for Genuine GM Parts

does this have anything to do with vats??
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 07:58 AM
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No, the express module is for the power windows.

You didn't say what year your car is, please do so in your 1st post of thread.

93-95 have a theft deterrent module (TDM), tucked way up in the dash. I've never removed one from a 4th gen, but on my 3rd gen, I had to take whole dash assembly apart to get to it.

93-95 also has a theft deterrent relay (TDR) which controls starter operation for vats security. It's tucked under the middle of the dash. You would know it by it's wire colors. 2 large yellow wires, 1 large purple wire, and 1 small yellow/black wire.

96-97 cars use a body control module to control vats. But they still have the TDR to control starter.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 08:11 AM
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Let me explain what happens when you turn key to start.

Power goes out of electrical part of ignition switch on a large yellow wire. This wire has a splice to split it into 2 large yellow wires. 1st yellow wire goes to TDR points to supply them with pwr.

2nd yellow wire goes to either trans position switch on automatic, or clutch start switch for manual trans. If shifter is in P or N or clutch pushed down for manual trans, power goes to TDR to coil side of relay.

Now for the important part a ground must be applied to the TDR for points to close and power to go to starter solenoid on large purple wire. The TDM on 93-95 and the BCM on 96-97 cars supplies this ground when vats security sees all is well with system.

You need to chuck the big starter switch you have into trash. Run the battery cable from batt directly to starter. Find the TDR under the middle of the dash, recognize it by the 4 wires I listed above. Take the small yellow/black wire and cut it. Splice in a piece of wire to the side of the yel/blk wire that goes to the TDR. Connect other end of this wire to a good ground.

This bypasses the TDR and will allow starter to work if starter is good. You still could have a bad power switch in the solenoid on starter. In that case a new starter would be in order.

But I have a notion that last owner put the rigged switch in because of vats security problems. In that case bypassing the TDR and wiring starter like original will get it working again.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
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Its a 94. so it is a switch that bypasses the TDR, I dont want to get rid of it because the previous owner made the car a push button start that also connects to that switch. I just want to get it cranking again without having to tear my dash and changing the neutral safety switch(would also have to take my seats out as theres no room to work under there. I suck at eletrical I just don't understand why after it started smoking theres no crank? Wouldn't VATS be bypassed already by that switch? Im just going to change my relays & test the starter. Besides that I give up. Too much damn work on this car.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
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Its a 94. so it is a switch that bypasses the TDR, I dont want to get rid of it because the previous owner made the car a push button start that also connects to that switch. I just want to get it cranking again without having to tear my dash and changing the neutral safety switch(would also have to take my seats out as theres no room to work under there. I suck at eletrical I just don't understand why after it started smoking theres no crank? Wouldn't VATS be bypassed already by that switch? Im just going to change my relays & test the starter. Besides that I give up. Too much damn work on this car.
Well the car's going to give you some education in electrical work... ;-) As others have said, PO stuck in that extra non-stock relay because he had some issue with starting, like a weak starter connection, or to bypass VATS. If it was mine, I'd toss that relay and wire the car like stock. But if PO really did something irreversible you'll have to logic it out yourself, maybe with a helpful friend?? "Push Button Starter" could be due to VATS issue or trouble with the ignition switch--did something similar myself once upon a time when the ignition switch was failing (pre-VATS furrin car).

Last edited by Karl Nancy Koenig; 03-27-2017 at 09:06 PM.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 08:38 AM
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Will this pypass let the car start and run
I have always been told there is 2 side to VATS one that controls the starter and another that controls the feul
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 10:25 AM
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The starter bypass is just to get the starter working.

If you have a vats problem that cuts fuel injectors, you will either have to tune vats out of computer, or get a 50 hertz bypass module for 94-97 lt1. A 93 lt1 car would use a 30 hertz bypass module.

These bypass modules send a 30 or 50 hertz fuel enable signal to computer. It then allows fuel injectors to work.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 11:51 PM
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Ok well I have fixed the VATS issue on my buddy's 1995 firebird car runs and drivers avian now he lost the keys and had to change switches so I got the lovely job of figuring out what vats chip he had

If by chance I have to do this again how dose the fuel shut off work and how would I use the 30-50 hertz bypass
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2017, 07:13 AM
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When the vats system has a problem or you have a silent code for opti low res signal missing, or the 2 icm related codes, the computer will shut down the 30 hertz fuel enable signal on a 93. Or the 50 hertz fuel enable signal on the 94-97.

Without the fuel enable signal, there will be no fuel injector opening to spray fuel.

The 30 or 50 hertz bypass modules have 3 wires that need to be hooked up. (1)A power wire that gets key on battery power. (2) A ground wire to a good ground. (3) Signal wire that goes to the fuel enable wire of the computer. Since 3 different computers were used from 93-97, where the fuel enable signal goes into the computer will be in different places on the computer, depending on year.

Since you can download, 93, 94, 95 & 96 factory service manuals at the following link, you should be able to find the fuel enable wire to computer. Look in either the wiring diagrams or the 5.7 lt1 driveability & emissions section. www.mediafire.com/?40mfgeoe4ctti

You will have to cut the fuel enable wire going to computer. Leave enough wire to splice in the signal wire from bypass module. The fuel enable signal wire on 93-97 will be dark blue.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2017, 06:28 PM
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Ok thank you for that info I am going to take a look if needed
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