Are baers stock equip?

[1997lt1]

Does anyone know for certain if the stock calipers on the 4th gen cars are made by baer? Im pretty sure the front ones are, PBR is a baer name, but are the raers? and If they are all baer, does anyone know of a way to upgrade to larger rotors without buying a whole caliper kit? Id like to get a set of Ls equpped brake calipers and larger 13 inch rotors. Any helpers???

[Chris 96 WS6]

No. PBR is not a BAER name, PBR is an Australian brake company. THey make the 98+ F-body front calipers. all the Corvette calipers, and the 82+ rear disc calipers.

Here is another alternative and what I run on my car: http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=7816

[1997lt1]

O.K., so so if pbr isnt baer. I understand that they arent, Does baer sell pbr calipers in their brake kits? Ive seen the 98+ front calipers included in their front kits, and the 97 rear calipers in their kits also. Wouldnt it be
the same thing to just get a 98+ front brake setup with eradispeed rotors?

[Chris 96 WS6]

Baer licenses some PBR designs and either has PBR make calipers for them (most likely) or makes their own licensed copies. The GT caliper is the Corvette C5 caliper, and the Track caliper is the old C4/Cobra caliper, both PBR designs.

The 98+ calipers are NOT in Baers kits, like I said it is a C5 corvette caliper. Although they look very similar, the C5 caliper is designed for a 13" rotor whereas the 98+ F-body brakes are 12". Plus the C5 caliper is much stronger.

IMO stay away from eradispeed rotors. You're paying for bling, not stopping power. Holes and slots don't do anything but make the rotor more likely to crack.

[1997lt1]

Thanks for your info, every bit helps. Ive had power slot rotors on my car for about 4 years now front and rear. theyre drilled only and although they have cracked a bit they havent warped or had any problems with the cracking. Im looking to upgrade to either wilwood 6 pistoin setup with a 4 piston rear setup, a ssbc 3 or 4 piston front setup with a 2 or 4 piston rear, or a set by baer. Any thought on the effectiveness of each? Im not worried about the install, they all wouldnt be too bad, although I know ssbc includes spindles and wilwood doesnt.

[Chris 96 WS6]

I'd rather see you go with the Stoptech Porche setup over SSBC or Willwoods. Or this: http://www.prostopperformance.com/product-fbody.html

[custom_z28]

im out...

[Chris 96 WS6]

I wouldnt say that they dont do anything...what around heat dissipation....... increased friction........increased stopping distance?

You're, right, they definitely INCREASE stopping distance. How do holes in the surface of the rotor INCREASE friction? :screwy:

The holes do three things I don't think the average enthusiast is aware of:

1. Remove surface area from the rotor--meaning less area for the pad to grab
2. Remove heat sink material/mass from the rotor--meaning less heat can be stored before the rotor deforms/warps
3. Promotes fracturing around the holes

BLING rotor manufacturers will tell you the holes aid in cooling and venting gasses from the pads, but there are two things wrong with that: 1. The loss of mass from the rotor negatively effects cooling more than the holes help. The directional vanes and pumping action do 99.9% of the cooling anyway, so the holes are really not needed; and 2. Modern pads don't "outgas" like pads from 20 years ago did. There's no need for pad gas relief.

[davesLT1]

That just saved me some money. I was gonna do the drilled and slotted thing, but i have seen the light, thank you.

[Chris 96 WS6]

Just get a good set of blank rotors and season them in really good. The best thing you can do to increase stopping power is buy a good pad (though the grippier pad will almost always dust more) and then upgrade to a larger rotor/caliper combination.

[custom_z28]

im out...

[Chris 96 WS6]

So you're saying by having holes, the rotors are hotter and the car stops better?

I'm no thermodynamics engineer but I don't think that theory holds water. Heat causes brake fade, which is BAD.

[custom_z28]

im out...

[00 Trans Ram]

Ummmm - heat cannot equal friction. It's a one-way cause-and-effect relationship. More friction can cause more heat. But, more heat cannot cause more friction. Think about it - how much friction does a stove create? Whereas everywhere there is friction, there is heat.

The increased mass of a holeless rotor (aka, "blank") takes longer to heat up given a constant source of heat. Therefore, it will not get as hot. Now it may take a little (not much, since the vanes are what cools a rotor, not the holes) longer to cool, but it will also be colling from a much lower high-point.

You want to hear a professional? Call Baer brakes and ask to speak to a technician. Tell him you are going road racing and ask him if he recommends drilled/slotted or blanks. I had this discussion with them the other day (not believing they'd actually say it). Not only will they tell you to go with blanks . . . they'll tell you that the holes are largely for looks only!

But, you're right, the drilled/slotted combo does have some pros. They fetch more $$ when sold secondhand. There is always a sucker who will buy them. And, they look bling-tastic on show cars!

[Transamman25]

Ok here is a novel idea .. lets check some things -autocross cars use what kind of brake set-up's ? Nascar uses what brake set-up at the glen .. finally and not so related what does F1 use ? anyone know for sure ?

[trackbird]

What I am saying by having holes you are allowing the heat to escape more readily. A solid object will hold it heats much longer than one with holes or venting of some sort. With less heat you increase friction. Yes heat causes brake fade. You are dissipating the heat more efficently with holes...thus reducing the overall temperature of the rotor. Guess i should have said...
less heat = more friction....either way.:thumbsup:

If we drill a bunch of holes in metal, it gets lighter. If we stop a heavy car, we can create a measureable amount of heat (I don't have my brake handbook handy and I'm lazy, but there is a formula to calculate temperature rise when stopping a car that weighs X from speed Y). So, we take a certain amount of energy and apply it to a 15 lb and a 20 lb chunk of metal. Which one will reach the highest temperature? The light one..... Now, if we have brake pads that work in a specific temperature range, we want to stay in that range. If we lighten the rotors, the peak temps go up, we then need a pad with better high temp performance. There is no free lunch, many pads that are good to 1,300 degrees will not work real well below 250 degrees. Well, that's ok on a race track, but on a daily driver that makes 135 mph passes in the 1/4 (and there are some out there), or even 115 mph passes, we run the risk of exceeding the temp range of the pads (much less a road course car that you'd like to drive home without changing brake pads before you leave). The lighter we make the rotor, the more the temperature will swing between cold and hot for the same energy (stopping the same car from the same speed). So, we don't typically want to lighten rotors unless we are already "over rotored". There are applications where rotating weight is more important than brake performance (Nascar on a super speedway comes to mind). Those cars run a pretty constant speed and don't need much by way of brake performance, they only stop from that speed on occasion and mostly run a constant, or nearly so, speed each lap. Besides, at 180 mph, air drag will slow you quickly.

The holes were for pad outgassing. This is from a time when pads were made with the best glue we had (not very good) and when you got them hot, the glue would cure. As it cured, it produced vapors. Those vapors could get trapped between the pad and rotor and try to force the pad off of the rotor (like playing air hockey). This was called "green fade". Once the pads had been hot and fully cured, it was no longer a problem (with those pads). This is what the holes were designed to cure. They were to prevent brake fade, but not the temperature based brake fade we are typically familiar with.

There are three types of fade.

Pad fade: This is where you exceed the working temperature range of the pads. They overheat and lose much of their ability to make friction.

Green fade: Where the vapors from heat curing the pad material "lift" the pad away from the rotor surface.

Fluid fade: This is where you boil the fluid and can no longer effectively put pressure into the brake pad/rotor interface. The boiled fluid turns to gas, and gas is easily compressed. That causes you to expend your pedal stroke squeezing the gas and not squeezing the brake pads.

Brake ducts can help 1 and 3, modern science has fixed 2. Keeping brake temps in check is critical to brake performance.

[Chris 96 WS6]

Excellent post!

[LS13RDGEN]

I am glad I went with drilled and slotted brake lines then. :D

[trackbird]

I wouldnt say that they dont do anything...what around heat dissipation....... increased friction........increased stopping distance?


You're partially correct. We've already covered the heat aspects to some degree.

They don't increase friction, but they do seriously increase pad wear. It's amazing how much dust they can produce and how fast they can chew up brake pads.

I agree with your last statement, they could increase stopping distance.....:thumbsup: This is not a good thing since we'd like to decrease stopping distance.

[custom_z28]

im out...

[Chris 96 WS6]

Hey, you're the one that rose to the defense of the holes...we've as yet to even discuss slotted rotors.

In some cases slotted rotors are OK and have some advantages, but if my choice is between a blank rotor and a drilled/slotted rotor? Give me the blanks all day every day.

[custom_z28]

Hey, you're the one that rose to the defense of the holes...we've as yet to even discuss slotted rotors.

In some cases slotted rotors are OK and have some advantages, but if my choice is between a blank rotor and a drilled/slotted rotor? Give me the blanks all day every day.

No....If you look I was merely saying that there ARE benefits......you said that they didnt do anything.....they do.....

I personally believe slotted is the best way to go...I am against drilled....they cause cracks and wrapping under fatigue too easily....:banghead:

Dont try to twist my words....I said from the beginning I wasnt trying to promote anything....I was just saying that there are benefits.

[Chris 96 WS6]

I agree you said in post number 7 that there are benefits, and that was in response to my statement that drilled & slotted rotors were a waste.

So obviously your intent at that point was to say at least the slots have some benefits, though you could have been more clear about it.

But then you went on to defend the holes with this doozie:

more heat = less friction....read some thermodynamics

I'm not trying to twisting your words and I'm not purposefully being argumentative. But I also don't see why you're getting your panties in a wad over this discussion either, except for that maybe your "facts" were busted up pretty bad by some knowledgable people. :D :P

I consider this pissing contest over :fluffy:

[trackbird]

I consider this pissing contest over :fluffy:

Hold that thought for a minute.....

So when was this just about drilled rotors again? So there are no benefits to drilled/slotted rotors.....

I give you exhibit A:

I wouldnt say that they dont do anything...what around heat dissipation....... increased friction........increased stopping distance?

more heat = less friction....read some thermodynamics....since when did this just become about drills? I thought this was about drilled and/or slotted rotors? All your info seems to be correct...but you are just stating the downfalls....every story has two sides. I was merely stating that there are pros not just cons.:no: I am not promoting anything...just stating facts.:angel:

What I am saying by having holes you are allowing the heat to escape more readily. A solid object will hold it heats much longer than one with holes or venting of some sort. With less heat you increase friction. Yes heat causes brake fade. You are dissipating the heat more efficently with holes...thus reducing the overall temperature of the rotor. Guess i should have said...
less heat = more friction....either way.:thumbsup:

Ok, you seem to have come up with a bunch of stuff on those pesky holes. One of the interesting things you did say was this:

A solid object will hold it heats much longer than one with holes or venting of some sort.

Venting of some sort..... Hmm....I wonder if that might explain the veins that are in between the cheeks (facings) of the rotor? It's an air pump. Think of it as a small turbocharger that (using either straight or slightly curved veins) pumps air out from the center of the rotor to cool it. Again, even if it did cool faster (mostly due to less mass to hold the heat), it's cooling from a higher temperature. So, we still have potential issues with pad compound and temperature range.

....every story has two sides.

Yup. Brakes are drilled to make them lighter, but they work less well and can crack and eat brake pads. The positive side is that they look really, really cool (to some people).

No....If you look I was merely saying that there ARE benefits......you said that they didnt do anything.....they do.....

I personally believe slotted is the best way to go...I am against drilled....they cause cracks and wrapping under fatigue too easily....:banghead:

Ok. Slotted rotors do a few things well. The main thing they do is grind brake pads into clouds of dust. I once bought a brake kit that had slotted rotors on it when I purchased it. I figured I'd run them for a bit (until I changed and bedded new race pads). I noticed that I could grind 1/8 to 1/4" of pad material off of each pad (both pads in the caliper) in 10 autocross runs of 50 seconds or less each. When pads are only .800 inches thick (6 piston Wilwoods), grinding 1/8 to 1/4" off of them (.125 to .250) is a bunch. This generates bulk quantities of brake dust.

Now, in their defense, they do help refresh the pad surface. So, if you were to overheat and glaze a pad, they may allow you to keep using it until the end of the race/event. It's much like running your pads over a cheese grater, but it does keep a fresh surface available to the rotor. So, there is a trade off for everything. They can still cause cracks, they still lighten the rotor (though not as substantially) and they involve many of the same trade offs of drilled rotors. And, just like drilled rotors, they can be noisy and generate a humming or buzzing noise when you stop the car. Some people find this irritating, others don't notice.

Dont try to twist my words....I said from the beginning I wasnt trying to promote anything....I was just saying that there are benefits.

This reminds me of an election year. People changing their position and saying they never said what they said last night/week, etc.

[Grims]

I bought some drilled/slotted rotors before doing my research on them...and now every time someone asks me if they help me stop quicker I gotta tell them it's a gimmick and they just look nice....and this is coming from the guy who hates mods that decrease performance to increase looks :lookleave

[SOMSS]

Brembo will tell you their blanks are for street duty only, their only track/autocross rotors are their slotted rotors. I have had all three type of rotors (slotted, drilled and blanks) and can tell you from experience that the best of them were the slotted Brembo rotors. One good drive in the mountains will tell you which rotor pad combo will fade on steep long down grade.